The concept of Draw

[leto]

Unlike what some (mostly American) players seem to think a game of Stratego has 3 possible outcomes:

Win Loss Draw

The first two are pretty clear to understand, the third is more difficult to comprehend.

I will take an example:
Scout vs 4 pieces, no miners, both flags bombed in. Because neither player can hit the piece of the opponent this is a draw, unless they make a stupid mistake.

Another example from a recent game:
At some points 2 players have a marshall. One has a major and 3 caps more and 1 miner. The other has more miners and other low stuff, all unmoved so no way to capture it.

Both marshalls are known. Clearly the player with the lower pieces has no intention to move anything but the marshall: everything else will be lost. The player with the stronger pieces seems to be content with this situation, he doesnt attack at all. All that happens is a useless race where no player can get a decisive strenght. Sad as it seems for the player with the higher pieces, this is also a draw, unless he forces the game.

Leto
Master of Stratego

[sadistic]

I really don't want to dispute with you, leto. You have been a supporter of mine and a hell of a player who has given me my share of losses. However, on the game we played tonight you were beaten and soundly. We both had marshalls, but I also had a major and four captains. You ran like a bitch from a credit card bill, so I came up with a plan and it worked just as it always has. It was only a matter of time when you would lose track of my marshall since I had so many strong pieces I could move. I hoodazzled you with fancy footwork and finally crushed your marshall and the game was over. However, it was a waste of time and you should have forfeit a long time before. Such a prolific player as yourself should have known that the outcome was inevitable. That is what I found so disappointing. Surely I did not expect one of the best players here to execute techniques originally created in ******* dens. What next, you will be holding a sign, "*** is beautiful"? This is just a game, people! Have fun beating the hell out of each other! For god's sake, play like men!

[esquire]

This is probably the only thing about the game of stratego that I would disagree with Leto and Glueckritter on. I have spoken to many European players and they have all been pleasant conversations, so I am not trying to start a feud between America and Europe!!!!!!!!

Leto, you are another great player that I respect. I agree there is a draw aspect of the game. My only comment is if you have 3 pieces and your opponent only has a scout, and you know that his flag is bombed in: This is most likely a draw. But, I feel the person with merely a scout should forfeit. They have barely "earned" that draw. I know it is legal, I know many do not support my opinion, but it is my opinion (and many others do support my view on this topic). And what is the difference between a draw and loss--nothing but a few rating points. Something that I could care less about. If I am the player with a slight advantage in a game--I will try to win; I will not play possum and hope for a draw. I play the game to have fun; I do not play to game to be the best player in the world. So, on that note, I respectfully disagree.


Moving on to another topic that many players of this site agree with me about is the way some players will not play certain players. I like the game and have fun playing it. If people start caring about rank as much as some do, they have already taken all the fun out of it. I for one will play anybody that is online at anytime. I do not play selective players. Some on here do this though. All they care about is how high their rank is. For example, a player will intentionally "weed" out certain players because their reckless play may earn you a loss. Or they will not play anyone below a certain rating because if they were to lose, their rank would fall too far. This site has grown a lot since I have been a member, and I think this site is much better then the Meta site for two reasons:

1) The graphics, no-freezes, and other aspects that are superior about the actual site.

2) Many people, from all over the world, come to Gravon and become friends--even if it is just over the internet. This is because many of us will not "discriminate" and pick and choose our opponents. I heard at Meta that many of the top players will not play the low-rung players because they just might lose. I hope this does not happen here--I have heard from many people here that certain players will not play them because they are ranked low.

So, now I am going off on some kind of tangent, but I leave you with this: Forget about rank, and just play the game.

Also, even though I started off speaking to Leto--only the beginning is a response, by no means is the rest of this post targeted at you or anyone else in particular, so I hope that nobody thinks I am speaking of them personally, because I am not.

[leto]

As for not playing certain players: if you are a strong player it makes sense sometimes, because if I play a game at my best against a player with a much lower ranking, it is not going to be very nice for both of us.

This player will get discouraged because it is quite clear to him that he doesnt stand a chance and for me it is just a repetitive excercise of slaugher.

Normally I play a bit more wild (sacrificing pieces etc) if I play such a game to learn something new about how people respond to moves. This way the game stays more interesting.

[esquire]

Again Leto. That part of the post was not directed at you. I was speaking generally.

[leto]

Yes that was clear, but I would like to explain what the reasoning of a top 20 player might be on the subject.

I think you were more talking about being selective to protect ranking: well that would not be a reason for me not to play certain people, especially not the ones that think lotto is a superior strategy, because after a few frustrating games where I lost in what should be a won position my minefield is ready for them.

[leto]

A little more on the concept of draw:

If a player cannot capture the opponents flag or all the pieces of the opponent or is not willing to (ie because they have to expose their flag or take other risks which seem unneeded it is a draw)

Side issue:
Sadistic thought a game with 3 caps and a major and were we both had a marshall was won just because he had those pieces. Well it is not. In fact in most tournament matches time would run out ending the game in a draw.

On the strenght of higher pieces:
I am willing to play all players here who believe having only the 3 highest pieces are enough to win. If the lakes are unblocked I would just want 3 miners and a scout (or other low piece). Depending on the quality of the start position of my miners I will win them.

[esquire]

Ok. I agree. Some players only do lotto. And if you know who they are, do not play them...They offer nothing of skill to the game. That I do agree on. I am not talking of a player using lotto at the end of a game, I am speaking of the player that does not have any skills and ONLY uses lotto throughout the entire game. I try to stay away from these type of players too. But, you must also take into account--until someone teaches them the correct way to play, they will always utiliize the lotto technique. It is a drug to them. I am just kidding about that. But seriously....

Now, I am NOT a top 20 player, but I am a high-ranked American player, so I do take pride in this, especially since we are always trying to recruit and get the Americans to enjoy the game. As I said before, a long time ago, I probably would still hate this game if it was not for a few top 20 players that helped me learn the tips and tactics of the game. For I used the lotto technique when I began, but you must realize lotto to some is all they know--like looking at the keyboard to type on a computer--until you get used to the game and figure out what is going on--you will need use a crutch--Lotto (hence the simile).

I actually hope to improve more at this game. And the only way for this to happen is to keep playing against the best all around the world. I will see some of you next year in Europe--I promised Wussy and a few others I would join the world championship next year wherever it is may be.

[esquire]

To respond to the draw concept. My only point was, if you have a good chance to win--just try and win....I have not yet met a good player (good is not always the same as high ranked either) that has not tried to win when they had the chance. Sometimes this is not the case, but the majority of the time they will try to win. I enjoy playing these players and hope to continue doing so.

The only thing that actually bothers me is if they ONLY HAVE ONE PIECE--A SCOUT. That just irks me beyond belief.

I almost forgot. There is a player name Ahab that only had a scout against me, and he graciously forfeited. Now if I was in his position I would not try to force a draw either. So, the only point we are not agreeing on is the single scout draw. That is fine with me. I wholeheartedly agree with you on everything else you have said.

[leto]

On the subject of the one scout: yes this is annoying, but it is one of the theoretical draws your strategy should take into account. Make sure to get those scouts off board before playing for the win with an andvantage of only 4 pieces.

Others are:

1 high piece that cannot be captured and keeps running around the lake where the other party has no miners left and the flag is bombed.

2 High piece you need for the win has to stay behind because the flag is open and other person has obtained the better fields

Think here of of a lieutenant that can only be stopped by keeping your last captain in the back.

3 One player has the highest piece and lots of miners, but the other player has 3 lower pieces that are between the lakes.

I.e. colonel plus 5 miners vs 3 captains.

[sadistic]

Let me simplify this issue because you guys are making it more complicated than it is. Forget about the rules for a second, leto. We all know you can exploit them and do many things which create draws. Let me remind you that hitting unmoved pieces is within the rules also. Running around with a 9 is within the rules. What esquire is saying is that REGARDLESS of the rules, some forms of play are unethical and in bad taste. In my opinion the rules should be changed in some ways. There should almost never be draws. It would be more interesting if there were a calculation method which determines which player outplayed the other by taking more value from the other player, thus not rewarding the faggot who ran around, scampering with a limp wrist for a draw.
The lotto thing should be controlled in this way; each player should only be allowed to hit 2 unmoved pieces during the course of a game. If he hits more than 2, he loses automatically. This would put an end to that nonsense. Of course, I am a genious and if I designed the game, it would not have these flaws.
Leto, some players, including yourself have learned to exploit the rules and frailties of the game and even include them in their strategy. Esquire, while a very good player, prefers to play for the fun of it. I tend to agree with him on this subject. Draws are not fun. I have on several occasions been in a position to force a draw but instead took big chances in pursuit of the win and lost as a result. On a few occasions I have won in these type of circumstances. That is I, playing to win or lose, not draw. Then again, I am a hell of a man and maybe I cannot expect others to be on my level as such. Is that asking too much?

[OGETARTS]

Sadistic - I notice you have 13 draws on your record (6 of them in 2005). If you don't like them and play to win or lose, then why do you have 6 of them so far this year? In what circumstances are you accepting these draws that you think should be eliminated from the rules? Not that it matters to me, but I was just curious....

Thanks,

OGE

[sadistic]

I only accept draws when there is no chance that I can win. If my opponent can win I usually urge him to try before accepting a draw. I do not make the rules, I only play in the context of them. Because of the rules, draws are unavoidable at times. I object to draws when there are still possibilities for one or both players to win. I have seen other players request draws when they are capable of winning but are too frightened of the possibility of losing. I find this gutless and - in origin.

[cosmo]

just a thought maybe spion could add a feature at options menu at start of game where offer draw is disabled this would not suit all players of course but for the players who detest draws it would force a more positive attacking game im sure , this probably is a stupid idea but then im not a very good player but i do know draws are part of the game sometimes i myself have played few games which ended in draws mainly due to having to leave for work and even being general,2 majors and spy up etc i offered draw due to in my view its unfair to take a win or concede defeat a void game would have been fine also but like sadistic i personally would rather blow my pieces to bits trying to win than play prance around the pony hoping for a draw if thats concidered - play oh well i call it doomed anyway do or die play although if i am well down i would have decency to accept defeat but what do i know lol

cos

[leto]

In reply to what Sadistic considers bad taste: there are only 2 things I consider bad taste:

1 Chasing my pieces if someone clearly cannot take them
2 Needlessly slowing the game down by thinking ages about moves that are clearly simple

If someone runs around the lake or jumps a scout: great. If I want the scout, I will come and get it. If you have a strong piece next to the lake I cannot take, be sure that I will try to hit your flag untill I have run out of superiority in pieces and the game ends into a draw (or a loss for me if I misinterpreted the situation).