What happens?

Agresor · Posted: 28.09.2004 08:06 Post subject: What happens?

hello
i read last messages here on Gravon and find out that here happens exactly those what i have predict in my writing on Gravon in february this year.
I explain once more what happens:
1)Players stop playing here .! And do you know whay?
I explain this in february:
becose Kleier system- this is frustrating ,nonsens rating system,with no award for win,just panish for loos,not appropriate system for internet,but fanatic supported by owner of this site.
NO FUN;NO ENYOJ!
Read my writing in february,if still exist-there write all explanation.
2)Players have more nicknames!And do you know whay?
Also this i explain in my writing in february!
The site shall be more fun and interesting and this is unpossible with Kleier system,so many peaple try again and again and again.......and stop playing after cca 20 games on some good position.And so we have about 300 or more players writing here on rating table,but i am sure that in realy we have on Gravon maybe 50% of this number of players!
3)All that is in realy very BAD for Stratego game.Quality players avoid to play often here,that he not go down on Kleier spreedsheet.And so we have here not many realy playing quality players ,that somebody can learn some better strategy.Quality is middle,with some exception and exactly these players also stop playing with time(like kentinator) ,while he not find no FUN more.I PREDICT those and i am very disappointed about.
4)i play all kind of stratego game ,especialy i love UL variation.In last time i do not find players to play UL,while nobody is ready to play with me,with some exception from USA ,but who are unfortunately very uncompatible on playing time with me.And that is while all players look into this Kleiers spreedsheet and avoid playing all kind games according this depressive rating system.
5)I love to play Stratego and i play becose game.I find also players here that are of the same thinking.I hope players like kentinator will return someday!

But better days on gravon will be only when Kleier rating system WILL BE REMOVED!Still is much probably that this my writing will be removed from forum.

Viva Stratego!
P.S pls accept my bad english,hope you understan
P.P.S Search for me ,all players are welcome for UL and classic and barrage

P.P.P.S
Down with Kleier system!

Agresor

aeolus · User Joined: 13 May 2004 Posts: 15 Location: Utrecht

Peolple,

Stratego isn't a game with many players, so to attrackt players and keep em playing you need to make it interesting. A different rating system could make it interesting.

Kleier is a great ratingsystem, but not as the main rating system. keep it as second rating and make a different rating as first rating WSC- rating or different interesting rating.

Cheers
_________________
Aeolus

apollo · Posted: 04.10.2004 18:18 Post subject:

I agree with Aeolus, If I were fortunate enough to win 50 games in a row, I would still not rise very much higher in the standings. I realize the kleier rating formula is probably the best for determining your true rating over a long period of time, but for on line stratego, you just would like to see your ranking affected more with quality wins. I don't know the answer, but I like the old wsc ranking system better than the current one. Kleier's system promotes people using dual identities because they get frustrated when their ranking goes basically unchanged after wins. Just my thoughts.

Apollo

esquire · Posted: 04.10.2004 18:50 Post subject:

I agree too. Check out major_pirro, has such a high rank, who has he beat??????????????

But we talked about this before, it may be very difficult for Spion to incorpoate a new system.

spion · Posted: 05.10.2004 08:34 Post subject:

Hi,

i mentioned it before somewhere around in the forum:

I am working on a dynamic rating system.. But it takes time. Unless someone will pay me for only working on Gravon, i will have only one or two hours a day for development

Creating a new rating system, implementing new games, all that takes time, much time.

Best regards
spion

esquire · Posted: 06.10.2004 02:38 Post subject:

Thank you Spion. Thanks for all the work you have put into this site.

Keep up the good work.

tableplay · Fortgeschrittener Joined: 13 May 2004 Posts: 121

Yes, thanks Spion for making it an awesome site. I hope that your dynamic ranking system incorporates exponential smoothing which I had mentioned in an earlier post. If it did then Esquire would be ranked much higher because he deserves it.

Your friend tableplay

wellington · Posted: 06.10.2004 12:08 Post subject: re: what happens

Kleiers rating, well i dont really like it either. So i also look at wsc rating. When i have a good day i sometimes win 5 or 6 games. Kleier never lets you go up, while wsc does. Since kleier im always around 1680 points. No matter how many i win, i will never break through 1700. If you lose 2 or 3 games, you go down fast. Need to win 50 games than to get back to at least 1680.

But hey, at least we get to play! It's a great site with some great guys (and girls) supporting it.

W.

Gluecksritter · User Joined: 19 May 2003 Posts: 38 Location: Dortmund

If I understand kentinator right, he didn't quit because the Kleier rating was so frustrating, but because he got addicted.
Do you really want a rating that makes you pop up and down to keep you playing? Do you want to risk neglecting job, family and friends like the people spending their time and money in front of stupid slot machines?

The Kleier system reflects the true playing strength better than most other ratings I know, and certainly much better than the WSC system. Therefore I would prefer that it remains the default rating system.

apollo · Posted: 06.10.2004 16:02 Post subject:

I think we all agree that the kleier's system gives the truest strength over a long period of time, but people's playing strength changes over time. When a player improves after time, he then can not improve his ranking under this system because he is "buried" so far down the rankings that he can never move up. For examples, look at players like knickles and PATRIOT, both excellent players that could beat you at any time but they're ranked below 100. That's the problem with this system and it promotes players using dual identities, We do play the game for fun, but everyone inside loves competition and everyone would love to see improvement in their own rankings.Just my thoughts.

Apollo

wsc_warrior · User Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 49 Location: Michigan

What are the formulas for WSC and Kleier? I can make something on a excel sheet. But I am no Pro so I can give it a try.

What is that crappy site

Metaforge use and there Formulas. It seems to be ok, but I see you go up in ranking to fast there.

SPION,

I know there is a need for some $$ but give a good Est. amount you would need to complete it faster. If 20 people gave 20 bucks or 30 people.

Please make a donation site link Paypal or something.
I would help if others join in.

spion · Posted: 07.10.2004 09:15 Post subject:

Hi!

if there is a millionair around who would like to spend me 100K$, i would quit my job and work 8 hours per day on Gravon

But as long as there is no such millionair, i have to continue my job.

But be sure, i am allways trying to free as much time as possible to work on Gravon.

New things are coming, please be patient

A word about Kleiers rating:

There is one point about it that is true: Kleiers rating does not take into account that a player can improve very fast. Kleier assumes that a player will have change his strength only within years.
I talked to Mr. Kleier about this issue and he agreed that online stratego is much more dynamically than real board stratego where you play only lets say 50 games a year.

Mr. Kleier told me he will provide us a new version of his rating which takes this into account.

Best regards
spion