Strados2 problem

[spion]

Hi!

thanks to attila, i got aware of a big problem with the strados2-files.

From the 25 february on, the battle results table shows the number of turns for each game.
A nice feature and nothing unsual, but:

The number of turns and the date a game was played taken together enables to identify the players of a strados2 game.
And thats very bad, since all files should be anonymous because players don't want to open up all their playing strategies.

So we now got a little problem:

If we would make the strados2 files recorded after 25-feb available for download, users could identify the players of the games.

The latest distibuted file up to now is from 06-january 2004.

The files from jan-06 until feb-25 are not critical and can be distributed as usual.

From feb-25 up to now, around 20.000 files have been recorded.

Usually a game takes between 100 and 500 moves, so there is a range of 400 turns. 20.000 files parted into 400 possible values makes 50 games per # of turns.

So if i shuffle all 20.000 games together, a user could take out one single game in the battle result table, note down the # of turns and sort out an average of 50 notation file candidates for this game. Not very much.. And the distribution may be even worse at some # of turns, enabling to identify single games much easier than that.
Additionally the result (flag taken, draw, give up, timeout,...) is recorded in both the results table and the notation file, so the chances to identify a file will grow up further.

So what to do now?

Remove the # of turns and outcoming from the results table and just delete the 20.000 files and start distributing files as usual from now on?

Another way is to not publicy distribute notation files but make them available only to the two players without anonymisation, perhaps including those 20.000 files, if players agree. (i always wanted to add this section yet but did not got the time to do it... thats what was meant by "download for players" option..)

Or something else?

Best regards
spion

[-deleted129]

Hello spoin,

StraDos files look like this classic.2003.05.06.173.gsn
And with the database people can find out which nicks were playing. True.

Maybe it is an idea to rename at random the 20,000 files (from Feb 25th till now) to something like this:
Classic_0000000001.gsn till Classic_0000020000.gsn

It will be a hell of a job to link nicknames to recorded files.

Or am I wrong?

Luc
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S t r a t e g o - C l u b - N a p o l e o n

[spion]

Hi Luc,

yes you are wrong.

Usually, files are named like you said, classic.2003.05.06.173.gsn

173 is a random number, all games played at one day are shuffled so usually a player would get 200 games for a single day.
Assigning player names to the games really would be a hell of a job, nearly impossible without knowlegde about the players.

But now, the man has got much more information to identify a game:

Even if all 20.000 games are shuffled, you can look into the battle results. E.g. you found a game "Lion <-> support". You'll find #-of-turns and outcome of the game (e.g. 352, flag captured, red won).

Now the only thing you have to do is write a little script to search the one .gsn-file with 352 moves and flag captured as result.

You'll find approx. 50 files with 352 moves, perhaps 10-20 with flag captured, 5-10 games with red as winner. So you now have to look at only 5-10 files, perhaps even less.

Or take a game with 500 moves. They're rare, so you'll probably only find 10 games with 500 moves, 4 with flag captured, two with red as winner and so on.

Chances are high to find out the one game you're looking for. And then you know the names.

Thats the problem.

Best regards
spion

[-deleted129]

I understand....

The info IN the .gsn files can be linked to information from the Battle results.

That leaves 2 solutions:
a) The .gsn file info must be changed. [difficult; if a game has # 300 moves is HAS 300 moves...if red wins, red wins]
b) The battle results info (some of it) must be kept secret [possible, but not a good solution]

I think that no other solution can be found then decrease the battle result info.
Maybe you can switch to played TIME instead of moves. Or rounding moves up or downward (not 341 moves but; 300-350 moves)
Or show # of moves / minute / player. [That will also give a hint to fast or slow players]
Other thing is do not show the Ending......


It is sad but the battle results are giving so much information (I like it!) that nicks can be linked to games (I dont like it)

Luc
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S t r a t e g o - C l u b - N a p o l e o n

[-deleted316]

Hi all,

The Strados2 files are really a wonderful feature available only here on Gravon, and thanks to Spion and all those who contribute to the daily upkeep of this site, this is the greatest Stratego site ever created! I had been waiting for something like this to come along for a long time. We even have this forum with which we can voice our opinion, so let's use it. I really would like to hear from the members about this issue. I think a lot of people care about maintaining a certain level of annonimity with regards to the Strados2 Game files. Otherwise, many great players would not use the download option for fear that it would be easy for anyone to understand how a particular individual plays. Specifically, I would like to know if people that use Strados2 were happy with the way it was before the extra data columns were added (number of turns and duration). Before that info was added, one could decide mutually with the opponent to use the download option with the understanding that it would reveal all to each other, yet the users could feel comfortable knowing that for anyone else to figure out who was playing that game, they would already have to have extensive knowledge of how those particular players set up and play. I have spent countless hours with the Strados2 files analizing games and trying to figure out who is who. I can say from experience that it's extremely time consuming, and the amount of information one can develope is minimal and most of it comes with a big maybe factor. It would take 20 years of hard work to really compile something substantial on many different players, and still it would only be a small part of the whole picture of how skilled people play here.

After Spion's posts about this subject, I thought of a possible, reasonable solution. First, all the 20,000 files should be shuffled together and the file names should not indicate any date. Second, the only games that should be posted are the ones that cannot be distinguished, in any way from at least 30, 40, 50 or more games (not sure what is an ideal number). If the number of turns information, in combination with other factors, makes a game distinguishable, it should be deleted. So, all games that can be distinguished should not be posted. Then, we should revert to the old way of doing things. If there is an easy way of accomplishing this, then probably most people here would be happy. Any thoughts folks?

It would be great if someone could translate this and any responses into Dutch and German, the two other most commonly used languages here on Gravon.
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the hun

[cyprus]

Battle results should be rounded to nearest 25, randomly up or down. What does it really matter if a 63 move game displays as a 50 or a 75 move game?

IN any case if a great players setups were known to you, would you ?
a) become a better player
b) be able to use a setup to beat him at his own game
c) use his setups to beat other players

NO to all 3. Why?
a) because borrowing a setup means nothing on a fresh game against a
fresh opponent who will have a diff setup than the great player played.

b) he would not be using the same setup 3 months later

c) new opponents setups are different and you have to know when to apply various strategies.

If you do not post the number of turns on the strados filenames, then a player would have to count mouseclicks to determine # of moves.

If you don't post the date on Strados file names that would help.

Strados Turns and dates should only be available to the 2 opponents who played each other to go out and see where they made a mistake.

As far as atilla goes, atilla, I would like to see games that I play by checking the download by player box within 2 weeks time of playing them.
And I appreciate all the efforts of those with gravon.
When nothing in life is free we should all count our blessings.
Paypal money coming soon. Also please ban Frank and his ip.
I have been always checking the download box, thinking it didn't matter because there was no way to tie it together. I would like to see all my games since March as I never played before that.

In another post, it would be cool to have a version of Stratego without a "used player board". Right on Apollo. Its how I learned, trying to remember. Of course than watching by visitors would be worthless.
Someday that could become an optional check box, "no used piece grid"
Of course , I don't know tournament rules, but doesn't the player just look at the caught pieces in the opponent's tray to see what's been captured in the real board game?

[-deleted129]

Any news on this topic?

I am really looking forward to a new set of .gsn files.


Thanks in advance,

Wussy
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S t r a t e g o - C l u b - N a p o l e o n

[spion]

Hi,

yes, there are news.

Because the # of turns and the outcome of the game, available in the battle results table, make it possible to identify games, i will change the #-of-turns field from exact number to a range (<50, 50-100, 100-150, 150-200, 200-250, 250-300, 300-350, 350-400, >400).

The outcome will be displayed as before.

Another change will be that strados2 files will only be published monthly. All games of the last month will be mixed up, so it will be nearly impossible to identify a single game.

All games up to now will be mixed up also, this will prevent identification of these games.

In the future there will be a section, where players can download their own games without anonymisation.
These games will only be available where the "Download for players allowed" option was checked in game options and will be protected by password.
Distributing such games without the permission of both players will strictly be prohibited.

I think this is the best way to handle it.

Best regards
spion