Poor Pat Tillman :((

[BeggardNobility]

i can't believe i actually bothered to skim through all that trash--to read it would be a waste of time--but the writer that caught my eye and held it the longest was ilimoinc. BRAVO--you've got the right handle on the situation. i agreed with most everything you wrote. about the economy however. "His tax cuts were too weak and he reappointed Greenspan who botched our economy in the late 90s by lowering interest rates before Y2K when it wasn't necessary and led us to a stock bubble." the stock bubble was a fluke--bubbles happen, but part of the problem was the new technology that allowed day-trading; the other part was the popularity of the moronic idea that regular middle-class americans can freely, and en masse, trade stock on a whim without negative consequence--greed was the problem. Greenspan hasn't done that poor of a job, its simply that the job was beyond him, or any man, at this point at least. everyone knows about the public debt 7-8 trillion, whatever, its mendable--the IRS collects 2trillion in taxes every year. the real problem is the privately-held debt, mostly by the middle class, which in aggregate totals 10trillion including cards, cars, and houses-- its the size of our GDP and is much less mendable. unquestioned, easy credit in the 90's, under clinton, has damn near destroyed this economy-- and its hard to imagine a quick, easy solution at this point--so deal with the sluggish economy and forget about the tax cuts and greenspan O->#

[Gaius_Marius]

Beggar, the title of this thread is Poor Pat Tillman. This title tells a tale of an American blunder. This thread does not talk of our economy. All llimoinc did was type up a long post and introduce other issues. To call it trash is absolutely outrageous. Let me guess?? You are a true blue American, right? Well let me tell you a bit about true blue Americans. These so called patriots elected a total moron in office. Uneducated bigoted crusader like Americans supported this totally useless war. We are so stupid that at this point Bush could come out and say that he's gonna nuke the whole middle east and we would still reelect him. I, for one, do not watch American News anymore. The bias that is reported in Iraq is apalling. How dare American reporters show graphic pictures of holy mosques being blown to bits by American soldiers. What's mind blowing is that after they bombed these mosques the soldiers sit down and baptize each other in the Christian way. If we are playing the role of crusader we WILL LOSE AGAIN like the crusaders did during the middle ages. Pull out before its too late.

American greatness and prestige can be restored by the power of negotiation and compromise. We cannot take sides. The negative consequences are too great for our future Americans to endure. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, mind the cliche

[apollo]

-,

Maybe you should watch the news more, because if you did, you would know that Pat Tillman and his brother and family were and are still totally behind America's war with Iraq. I think you totally have misrepresented Pat and his family's views on the matter. Just turn on your TV and check it out. And as for bias reporting, PLEASE all we see and hear from Iraq is how many deaths there are each and every day. Nothing is ever said of all the good being done there.Like the new schools being built, the new businesses being established, etc...We don't hear it because eveyone knows for the most part, the news media in the USA is very liberal and do not want Bush re-elected. One last thing, Pres. Bush is a Christian and as a Christian, one can not compromise beliefs. There is no "middle ground" when it comes to Christianity, there is only one Way. We all should applaud the man for sticking to his beliefs wheter or not you agree with them. You SURELY will not get that with Mr. Kerry, he changes his mind on every issue depending on who he speaking to at the time. Just my thoughts,


Apollo

[Gaius_Marius]

Hi Apollo. My post was not intended to describe the feelings of Pat Tillman and his family towards the war. The post was intended to convey MY feelings about the war and how Tillman was a lemming for supporting it. Apollo, I don't quite understand what you're saying about Bush and his strong belief in Christianity. You mean to tell me God is telling Bush to stop the "terrorists"? Please elaborate.

[apollo]

Hi -,

No I'm not saying that, but in a way, I believe he feels that it is good vs. evil or God vs. Satan. He is, from all accounts I've read, a very deeply Christian man as I try to be. In the Christian belief there is no room for negotiating(if you will) when it comes to issues concerning God. You either believe in him and his teachings or not. That's all I'm saying. That being said, he tries to make his decisions accordingly. One major point which has not been mention here is that all conflicts in the history of the world have had casualties. Sometimes lives have to be sacrificed to prevent even greater loss of life. An example of this is when US bombed Japan with nuclear weapons. All "experts" agree this saved 100's of thousands of lives that would have been lost with years of endless fighting in WW2. I think the US has been more than accomidating to civilian life in Iraq. We could be bombing by air and never lose any of our soldiers, but would probably kill innocent people, therefore we continue a mostly ground assault and sacrifice our own soldiers each day. We refuse to fire upon masques(sp) in an effort to "respect" their religious beliefs, but at the same time the rebels there hide in them and fire upon our soldiers. I wish the whole thing would end also, but we can't stop now, we must finish the task at hand, or repeat it again in a few years.


Apollo

[BeggardNobility]

I call it trash because you people are getting so riled up over nothing--calm down. yes you are a moron--this kind of behavior by the american government is nothing new, and you writing endless posts on some gaming site is not going to change it. yes, america is turning to sh*t--mounting domestic and foreign problems--deal with it.
tillman does not support the war--he liked to kill, he liked to fight, he liked the action--it made him feel like a man--so when the opportunity presented itself, he accepted. and this can be generalized about most citizens in the armed forces--thats why they volunteer for the sh*t. sure they could die, but they would trade that any day for the freedom to kill. the others that don't fit this majority characteristic are either worthless deadbeats that can't get a steady job, indecisive morons that need the army to think for them, insecure assholes that need the gratification of others as a "hero" to feel any worth of their life, and those few of the naive mind that think they are actually making a difference.
you should not feel sorry for poor tillman--he made a choice, a tradeoff, and he's living with it (...well i guess its even better for him because he doesn't have to live with it)
i am not a true blue american, and what i'm talking about when i call this stuff trash is that your emotions are driving your arguments so strongly that you immediately jumped on it, assumed it, and called me one--then went on another rant. get a grip -. drop this sh*t

[Gaius_Marius]

First of all I'm not riled up over anything. I expressed my opinion. I DO feel sorry for him because he passed up a rich and fulfilled life just to go over to Afghanistan and die. For nothing! Calling me a moron was completely out of line. I don't know if your last post was meant to be funny or serious. It seems to me, my friend, that the only trash posted here was that last post by you.

'They would trade anyday for the freedom to kill"


I don't know whether to laugh at that quote or get angry at you for making such a dumb remark.


-

[apollo]

-,

Don't let beggardnobility get you upset, everyone has the right to his or her opinion , I respect you for yours, we're not trying to offend anyone just trying to have an intellectual debate. I hope I haven't offended anyone if I have I apologize.


Apollo

[esquire]

I just finished reading most of these posts under this site. I agree with most that was said. But, calling Bush a true Christian, is a fallacy. Bush had too many problems in his own past to be called a "True Christian." There was a book written about him, which was well documented to be true. In this book, it spoke of his drinking and driving, and being convicted; also it spoke of his drug use--not only marijuana; and it spoke of how his ex-girlfriend had an abortion. The Bush family had this book expunged from being distributed, but the book does still exist--even after the court ordered the publishing company to "burn" not just destroy all the books. A true Christian would not have ever of had premarital sex, and would especially never of had an abortion. The bible does forgive one for their sins--but the Church does not seem they do (I will not get into the history the Church has influenced on our world). Besides this little point--I just wanted to get it out there--There are some great, debatable issues you all have raised.

Beggard--I have no idea what you are talking about the economy-when nobody else seemed to get into it. One little line-and you got riled up. You cannot blame Greenspan. He is probably one of the most powerful men in the world. That being beside the point--who would you have replaced him with? I was just wondering.

Faithless and the Illomic [sic] raised the best points in my opinion. Tillman was the discussion, and I do not feel he went to war so that he could have a License to Kill. That is a slanderous remark. Sorry talking about Beggard again.

Someone got it right when they said Cheney was calling the shots. Bush is a feeble-minded man. He may not be ignorant--he does understand how everything works--he is not very sagacious about demonstrating the correct means to get his end. Cheney does own a company that was the only contractor to bid on the projects for after the war. Hmm, seems odd to me. Bush and Cheney just got done with Congressional/Senate hearing about the actions on the War and post-9/11 incidents. Bush brought Cheney to this inquiry--it was not under oath by the way, and no recordings were allowed. A commentator remarked that Bush being able to bring Cheney is like a student being able to sit next to his tutor during a final exam. I thought that was very funny.

To end--I do not agree that people cannot have an intellectual debate on a gaming forum. So what! I really did not add much to the discussion in terms of the war being just. I do not know the truth to all the issues, and neither does anyone else. Bush may have lied--it has not been proven yet. All the people in the American political system that is now opposed to Bush, because elections season is drawing near, or very short-sighted and two faced for my liking. Russia, France, and China--I have never heard that they believed Iraq had WMD until someone said that in these postings--could you please give me that source. I have heard alternative theories as to why they opposed the war-but I will leave that issue alone. I am a true-blue American, but not by the definition that you have defined it as. I support my country--as everyone should (unless they are being oppressed--which some even argue that we are under the Patriot Act Doctrine), but I do not go with the flow. Many people outside of the US think our whole county is made up of Bush loving, gun-toting, gay-bashing, war-loving, ignorant masses that follow whatever is on the President's agenda. You are wrong. Many of us do not like Bush, and never supported the war. Many of us do share the same views as the UN council does. I know this site is not made up of a majority of Americans, but I beg you that are not from my country, please do not group us into one generalized bunch, we are made up of many faces and ideas.

And for the record I did not vote for Bush, but would have voted for Reagan if I was old enough.

[apollo]

Esquire,

First of all, being a Christian does not mean that you've never sinned. There was only one perfect person. Bush became a Christian after all the things you mentioned. As to the countries you mentioned not knowing of the WMD's, it's in almost every resolution given by the UN which theses countries voted for. And finally, do you think Reagan would not have gone to war, I ask this because you said you would have voted for him but not Bush. I assure you Reagan makes Bush look like a left winger when it comes to that issue.


Apollo

[esquire]

Bush is a Christian because that is the main party/affiliation basking his campaign. And I know Reagan was an ultra-conservative compared to Bush. Sorry I have not followed the UN resolutions—would you give me a pinpoint source where I could look this up. I was not talking about Reagan not going to war; I just think Reagan would have been more frank with the people of the world. I really believe that Bush lied, just as Clinton had. But that is my opinion, and until the facts are laid out, we will never know. Sorry about the Christian comment. I do not want to get into religion, but please do not use Bush as the poster-child for religion, because he is not a great example.

[BeggardNobility]

"rich and fulfilled life?" -, you don't personally know tillman--if he were fulfilled why would he be willing to sacrifice his life and at such a young age? you seem to take people at face value and there's nothing deeper, there's no gray area, there are no secrets that you'd rather not know, there are no angles to a psyche, just what you see. your problem is you have faith in humanity, which either makes you very young or very naive--i could help you with your problem, but ignorance is bliss and i'm sure you think you're right. lastly, i didn't call you a moron-- in all of your emotion, you called yourself one but maybe not in that exact wording--i simply agreed.

esquire, read my posts again--you seem confused as to my position and my level of emotion.

this is the last post i will make--enjoy your pointless rantings and your futile opinions. hopefully they'll end up in an political forum rather than gravon.

[apollo]

Esquire,

I hear the comment alot that Bush lied, give me an instance when he did so if you will.

Thanks

Apollo

[Gaius_Marius]

How the hell do u wake up in the morning? You're so cynical and bitter. I can tell from the "emotion" in your post. Yes I am young and my post may seem futile. However, I just wanted to let our German friends and fellow Europeans know that they are intelligent Americans that view this war as being very very wrong. The intelligent American being myself.


according to the average American, Moron=a person who expresses his absolute disgust for a war on a gaming board. *sigh*

[esquire]

I never said Bush lied. I said I think he did, but no facts are out there yet to prove this. I am not starting a fight, I am only trying to say that all American do not think like our President and the generalization the European nations have for us. Sorry if I made anyone mad, but I am a very education young man living in the American society; I am just sick of being typecast as a bigot.