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Quarter finals - pairings
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playa1
Fortgeschrittener


Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 82

PostPosted: 01.05.2018 22:06    Post subject: Tourney Reply with quote

Hi all,

It's a shame to read all this... I also noticed that Overlord was disqualified in first place and agree with Swordfish it's not common to change decisions afterwards. On the other hand I support the change, because I don't like that players are thrown out the tournament like this and opponents get free tickets to the next round.

Most important is that we all have to remember we are here to have fun (thank you Ruben) so can we leave this behind and just continue to play our beloved game?

Greets,
Tim / Playa1
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fks
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Joined: 04 Dec 2017
Posts: 30

PostPosted: 02.05.2018 16:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Nick has quit the tournament. I can't advance with out playing. I will have to leave as well. I am sorry this has happened.

I wish the best to the 4 who are left.
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overlord
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Joined: 10 Aug 2017
Posts: 23

PostPosted: 02.05.2018 22:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

im also quiting from this drama and sick people.
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spion
Gravon Administrator


Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 750
Location: Koblenz

PostPosted: 02.05.2018 23:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

overlord wrote:
Swordfish is a sick kid that destroyed the tournament.


i'm no participant in the tourney but i read all the posts in this and the other topics and i dont agree with the opinion that Swordfish destroyed the tournament.

If i may quote your tourney rules:

Quote:
"in case that a player does not show up to an appointment, the present player wins the match after 15 mins waiting"


The following facts seem to be free of doubt:
- Overlord did not play all necessary games at the first date but quit without saying any word
- At a second date, proposed by himself, he didn't show up

According to the rules, the second point alone clearly leads to the conclusion that the win for the match is given to Swordfish.

And i personally think that this is totally fair. Swordfish was online at the first date to play all necessary games and wasted his time waiting for his opponent to come back and again wasted his time at a second date waiting for his opponent to show up at all. What was the problem to say "Sorry, i got to leave at this time, can we continue our match at another time?" at the first date? I think one can expect that for reasons of fairness.

I'm very sorry that so many players decided to quit the tourney but i totally can understand them.

Best regards,
Thorsten
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ruka
Chief-Admin


Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 187
Location: Koblenz

PostPosted: 03.05.2018 12:12    Post subject: Necessary changings of rules Reply with quote

Hi there,

I talked to spion about this issue and we decided to create a new and global rule for all further tournaments. Every player has the right to doubt a decision of the tournament organisation, espacially, if the organisation takes part as players. If a player doubts a decision, the court of arbitration has to be involved. Because spion and I (or Stratego, if he is not playing) are not participants of 99 % of the tournaments, we will be the neutral court of arbitration. No tournament will be allowed without this global rule. The desicion of the court of arbitration is final.

I'm very sorry about this situation, because I know Stratego-Players mostly as fair. Winning is a nice thing, but it does not justify this kind of behaviour.

Best regards,
Ruka
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playa1
Fortgeschrittener


Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 82

PostPosted: 03.05.2018 12:36    Post subject: Neutral court Reply with quote

Hi all,

I like the idea of a neutral court, especially when organisers are involved in playing themselves. If we respect the decision of the neutral court about this situation, this means Swordfish will receive the win. Hopefully the remaining players are willing to proceed with the tourney?

And please behave like grownups with respect for each other.

Greets,
Tim
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ruben87
Gravon Administrator


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1220
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: 03.05.2018 12:51    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ruka,

Thats a good idea. Furthermore I agree with Tim, lets get on with the tournament. Im still in anyway!
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ruka
Chief-Admin


Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 187
Location: Koblenz

PostPosted: 04.05.2018 07:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys,

unfortunately we were not involved in all the talks and decisions made. Now - afterwards - it is hard to decide, what had to be the right way. Because of that, we will not interfere with the (still running!) tournament. It is task of the organisation team to bring this tournament to a good end. I think thay will surely post, how it is going on.

So much for the official part. Now my very own and personal oppinion.

I was not here and not involved, I know stratego-players by there legal names, not by their nicks on gravon. I don't know who is banned where and why. And I don't care, who is banned for what reasons on other plattforms than gravon. Because we have rules, and the rules are - in most cases - very clear. Everyone has to follow the rules, no matter if he or she is in the orga team or not. This is, so noone has to be in the conflict to decide on purpose against a friend, collegue or even someone he or she does not like. And hopefully the rules - with the new one included - help to prevent such conflicts in future.
I was a bit startled about this whole situation, because (I agree to my brother) it seemed to be something that is clearly written in the rules. And even more I was surprised about the behaviour of grown ups, playing a game together.
So, please finish this tournament without insulting each other, without throwing playing pieces or forgetting about your stage in age.

Best regards,

Ruka
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fks
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Joined: 04 Dec 2017
Posts: 30

PostPosted: 04.05.2018 07:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

A.

Last edited by fks on 08.05.2018 13:39; edited 1 time in total
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ruka
Chief-Admin


Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 187
Location: Koblenz

PostPosted: 04.05.2018 08:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tournament organisation is responsible for the tournament, not the gravon administration. This is why I wrote, that we will not interfere with this running tournament, because we don't have enough insights to decide fair.
Now we only get oppinions from different perspectives.

It is the right of every player to quit a tournament, we can't and won't force anyone to play, who doesn't want to. And its not ours to judge, if he or she made the "right" descision. Only the player himself can judge that.

I am sorry, that you think you wasted your time. Hopefully you had fun playing though.
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fks
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Joined: 04 Dec 2017
Posts: 30

PostPosted: 04.05.2018 08:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

A.

Last edited by fks on 08.05.2018 13:39; edited 1 time in total
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ruka
Chief-Admin


Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 187
Location: Koblenz

PostPosted: 04.05.2018 08:51    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry, that you think so.

Sure I don't know anything about the backgrounds of stratego-community.
But sometimes, this is an advantage.
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fks
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Joined: 04 Dec 2017
Posts: 30

PostPosted: 04.05.2018 18:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

Test.

Last edited by fks on 08.05.2018 13:38; edited 1 time in total
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spion
Gravon Administrator


Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 750
Location: Koblenz

PostPosted: 04.05.2018 19:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi fks,

fks wrote:
"in case of a 2-2 tie additional matches are played until there is a winner."

"6 points for win, 3 for a draw and 1 for a loss. Each matchup within a group will be 1 game"


you have a point here. Indeed the term "match" was not defined. You interpret the term as being the same as "game", a single game of Stratego. That view is supported by the rule you quoted.
I on the other hand interpreted the term "match" in contrast to the term "game" as a sequence of games, more precisely as the set of games that have to be played between to players until one scores the necessary amount of points (>= 2).

There is another rule that supports the interpretation of "match" as a sequence of games:

Quote:
a player can only play one match at the mandority date

in case that a player has to play more than 1 game at the mandority date, he loses all games


Here the terms "match" and "game" are used in the same sentence.

I googled around a little bit for "game match difference". In fact, several web pages support the view of the term "match" as a sequence of "game"s. For example the tourney rules of Magic, The Gathering (a card game):

https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Match

Another example: Tennis. Tennis defines that a match consists of several sets and a set consists of several games, so as a consequence, a match is a series of games.

https://www.englishforums.com/English/TennisGameMatch/dlkgh/post.htm

And obviously, Swordfish followed the same interpretation: A match is a set of games.

So as a consequence for the next tourney, the term should be defined clearly.

Former tourneys played on Gravon always followed the rule that a player not being there at an appointment gets a loss for the full "match" = all games to be played between two players in the same round. That also follows rules used at live tournaments: If a player doesn't show up, he looses the round (or even gets disqualified).

I think the whole problem was caused by a series of misunderstandings. Assuming only one game to be played at an appointment, leaving without a word, interpretation of the term "match" and so on. If you would have made your posting earlier i guess some things could have been prevented.

The problem always is the same: If a member of the tourney organization takes part of the tourney as a player, something goes wrong and a decision has to be made, things get complicated. Thats the reason for Ruka's idea and i support that.

Best regards,
Thorsten



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ruka
Chief-Admin


Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 187
Location: Koblenz

PostPosted: 04.05.2018 20:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

fks wrote:
Then maybe a different Admin would be better to respond to my post... Not one who dodges everything said. I would prefer Dieter to at least acknowledge what I wrote.


Maybe you are right. Maybe we have different meanings of the word 'neutral', maybe Dieter will say something. I wrote an official statement earlier and then my personal opinion. Nothing more.
I did not dodge, I said, I can't say anything about backgrounds I do not know. This does not prevent others with more knowledge to say what they think.
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